FANLib Forums

I agree with some of those options for rules, as long as they are spelled out. At the very least, the issue of not having a self-vote be a tie breaker makes sense.

This does mean extra work for organizers. It makes more sense to also try to get the rules reconsidered and changed by the Admin.

But baby steps... baby steps

Hmmmm.... this makes sense.... If self-voting is not sportsmanlike... and I compare self-voting here to self-voting in politics... I guess that makes more sense... ain't nothing dirtier than politics!

Seriously, I am ok with other's opinions. Maybe that's why I care whether or not people may see me as unsportsmanlike.

Unfortunately, this in some ways makes me not want to vote. Now whenever I participate, this will be in the back of my mind. And potentially I could have to choose an entry I don't really like. This could happen especially in some of the small contests where there are only 2 or 3 finalists.

I just don't know anymore.

From the voice inside my head:

Jo, stop reading the forums.
Use the time to read more stories in order to vote in contests.

jopierce wrote:

Unfortunately, this in some ways makes me not want to vote. Now whenever I participate, this will be in the back of my mind. And potentially I could have to choose an entry I don't really like. This could happen especially in some of the small contests where there are only 2 or 3 finalists.

That can happen and if I don't find a favorite amongst the other finalists, I don't vote, either.

I think one other thing that might hamper voting in contests is the time length of some of them. When a contest is longer than a few weeks, I tend to forget about them. Some have several days discussion time, then a month for submissions and then another week for review and then another week of voting. Well, by the time it gets to voting, my submission may be buried on a second page of submissions on my page. Or, I've just forgotten I even entered. Or that the contest was still going.

I've done four contests now and tried to keep them all within about 3-4 weeks from beginning to end, some were even shorter. I've had a good turnout for submissions, so making it even longer wouldn't have had much impact. I think with all of them, 90% of the submissions came in the first week. The review time is kind of a waste (I left a longer one for my current contest because of the commenting requirement, but most didn't seem to need that extra time.) Five days to a week seems like plenty long to vote too.

maryilee wrote:

90% of the submissions came in the first week.

This is pretty much par for the course when it comes to most contests. People rush to submit and then it gets pushed to the side.

I try and keep plugging in reminders about deadlines in my contests to help people who have forgotten. The sad thing is, some contest-holders don't do this and as Maryilee said, we forget.

There is also the fact that a lot of people don't, won't, or are resistant to reading outside their fandoms. And if they are long entries, that can become a chore if it's not something you are willing to do. So many will just not vote.

Are people who do FANDOM BASED contests getting more people to vote? I wonder if the Naruto, Twilight contests only have 4 votes...

Bumping this ... still wondering about my question, above. ^

jopierce wrote:

There is also the fact that a lot of people don't, won't, or are resistant to reading outside their fandoms. And if they are long entries, that can become a chore if it's not something you are willing to do. So many will just not vote.

Are people who do FANDOM BASED contests getting more people to vote? I wonder if the Naruto, Twilight contests only have 4 votes...

I can't say about the official FanLib contests, but in the member contests (Fandom based or not) getting people to vote is like pulling teeth. At least that's my impression, even though I've never run a contest. It seems that members get all excited about a contest and that contest sometimes gets a number of submissions. Once that happens many (if certainly not all) of those submitters don't have anything further to do with the contest--they don't read and review other submissions and/or don't vote.

What I think is interesting is the number of contests that seem to generate a lot of interest in the beginning (like the "A picture is worth a thousand words" contest) and then practically has no submissions at all. I thought that one was a fun contest, but only a small handful of people actually submitted anything. As far as I can tell the person who won the contest (and, yes, it was a worthy entry) did not comment on the other entries or vote in the contest. I felt sorry for the person who initiated the contest, though, because there was all this initial interest and then practically no one even submitted anything.

It is also hard to get people to understand that anyone can vote in a contest, not just the people participating. One of my entries in the "Picture is worth a thousand words" contest had some really good comments from FanLib members, none of whom voted for it later. Maybe they didn't realize they could vote for it or that it was even in a contest.

Somehow, we need to come up with better ways to 'market' contest participation.

Beth

I think one of the reasons is the same reason that there are so few reviews - not just on this site, but everywhere.

(Begin mini-rant mode, where "you" is absolutely not aimed at anyone in particular...)

People who write fanfic tend to see themselves as writers. And what do writers do? They write stories and they receive reviews. Reading stories and leaving reviews is something readers do. I've lost count of the number of people I've seen bewailing how few people review...and in the next breath commenting that they themselves don't review any more, because they don't have time, or because they consider the overall quality is low so they don't browse the sites any more, or because they don't want to get yelled at if they leave concrit. Well, the rest of us are exactly the same. Those are the reasons that WE aren't reviewing THEM. But they don't get it. They're writers, and everyone else is readers and should therefore review, rate, vote, whatever. Even though they don't. I've seen people complain about how the number of people reviewing is falling and it's so unreasonable for people to read a fic and not review it...when I've never seen those people leave a single review, ever. I can only presume they consider themselves above even reading anyone else's fanfic. No, sorry, I have better things to do with my time. I don't review on a tit-for-tat basis...but I do tend to spend more time reviewing stories by people who consider themselves part of a writing community, rather than people who think reviewing is something other people do.

To my mind, unless you've left more reviews than you've received, rated more stories than you have been given ratings, voted in more contests than you've entered...you're part of the problem. You are not different. If you don't review or vote because you're too busy writing, why should you expect anyone else to be any different? They're writers too. They're not sitting there thinking "I'm a reviewer, let's do some reviewing" they're also sitting there thinking "why won't anyone review my stories!"

As far as entering contests goes...I confess I only rarely write stories especially for contests, and I've yet to do so here. It would have to really catch my imagination in a fairly overpowering way. I already have several stories I know I want to write, or which are in progress, so anything else has to jump the queue. The chances of that happening with a fandom-independent prompt are slim. Not zero - "Graduation" was a story I wrote for just such a challenge on another site - but slim.

Even though they don't. I've seen people complain about how the number of people reviewing is falling and it's so unreasonable for people to read a fic and not review it...when I've never seen those people leave a single review, ever. I can only presume they consider themselves above even reading anyone else's fanfic. No, sorry, I have better things to do with my time. I don't review on a tit-for-tat basis...but I do tend to spend more time reviewing stories by people who consider themselves part of a writing community, rather than people who think reviewing is something other people do.

:::applause!::: Thank you for saying what needs to be said. I feel like I'm getting into a rut here. I've left far, far more comments than I've received (especially when you consider probably 70 or so 'comments' on my submissions are questions about various contests I've held and not in regards to any of my work.) So, when you subtract that number, I give out about 3x as many comments as I receive. Yesterday, I decided not to comment on anything. I just didn't think it was worth the effort. When I went home from work, instead of reading and reviewing, I worked on some of my own stuff for awhile.

I don't expect to receive a comment for every single comment I leave, but there are some people I've left multiple comments for and have not received anything in return...not even on a picture. For those people, I am done leaving comments.

Many other comments I have left have been on random submissions as I was browsing. I don't expect much in return for those. I just felt like reading/commenting.

As far as commenting on contests go, yeah, the contest I held prior to my current one, not only did very few of the finalists vote, but the winner never commented on anyone's fic and never even acknowledged her win.

That was mainly the inspiration behind my current contest. Even with my stipulation, I still had 3-4 authors submit and never comment or do such a brief comment as to not be worth it and only did that twice. (on the same fic, mind you. Days later. Guess they didn't actually read it or they would have known!) I even pm them and didn't get a response. I did leave comments on all their fics as to exactly why they weren't finalists.

None have responded.

cathrl wrote:

People who write fanfic tend to see themselves as writers. And what do writers do? They write stories and they receive reviews. Reading stories and leaving reviews is something readers do. [...snip...!]

....If you don't review or vote because you're too busy writing, why should you expect anyone else to be any different? They're writers too. They're not sitting there thinking "I'm a reviewer, let's do some reviewing" they're also sitting there thinking "why won't anyone review my stories!"

Wow! I think you hit the nail on the head with your post, cathrl. I wouldn’t have been able to say it better myself.

I must confess that the reason why I came to FanLib in the first place was because I was looking for a writing community. On other fan-fiction archive sites, such as Fanfiction.net, visitors don’t have the same, unique opportunity to interact with one another as they do here. The site is set up so that each fandom category is an isolated little island with its own regulars and one-hit wonders and nobody strays from their area of interest. There’s even a half-hearted attempt at building community closeness with the category forum option, but I haven’t seen one that I could honestly call ‘active.’ The layout of FN is exactly what the front page boasts: it’s archival, and that’s why it’s so easy to forget that there are real people behind those screen names and that they had taken the time and effort to write these stories. To put it simply, that place just doesn’t have a soul.

Here, on the other hand, we have this amazing opportunity to be exposed to and inspired by all these different fandoms and writers from all walks of life. We’re not focused specifically on fandom, but rather come to share in the spirit of what it really means to be a fan and a writer. In my opinion, I think the forums are the real secret to Fanlib's success. Those who post regularly on the forums mingle together and build not only a familiarity with one another, but also a curiosity that bridges the gap between fandoms--a genuine interest in what another author has to offer, regardless of whether or not one is familiar with the fandom that the author in question writes for. This is what gets the engine of a writer’s community running, wherein everyone is invested in everyone’s work.

After all, it’s only natural that as you build that familiarity, you begin to truly realize that there are real people here, and the fact that they are just as equally passionate about writing as you are. And when you see them putting in the effort, not only into the work they submit, but the posts they make and the reviews they leave, it’s infectious. You want to be apart of that that phenomenon. You want to help them out and support them when you can. And most importantly, you’re truly interested into seeing what they’ve got to offer.

From my experience, although I do not doubt that there are exceptions, I think it is the people who distance themselves from the forums that appear to have this 'I'm a writer not a reader!' complex that cathrl mentioned above. The one-hit wonders that sign up and lurk, waiting for a review and only occasionally posting a complaint on the forum. They're not interested in building a community; they're interested in getting applause.

I'm going to be honest. I am twice as likely to check out someone's profile and their work when I see them posting regularly on the forums and offering some thoughtful insight rather than opting to click the ‘browse’ button when I’m looking for something to read. Maybe it's not fair and maybe it is isolating a demographic of other talented writers, but seeing these people put an actual effort into reviewing and providing constructive critique is infectious--not in a tit-for-tat sort of way--but you really want to support them too. You know that they could have easily taken that hour or two they spent reading and reviewing someone else’s story and dedicated it to their own writing, but they didn’t. They want to build a community and that's something I want too.

I imagine that this was the original reason why the member ranking system was implemented--something of a ‘reward’ for being an active participant in the community. Of course, we’re all too aware of its potential for abuse and how there are a few high-ranking individuals who are very active forum posters, but don’t actually leave behind any thoughtful reviews or post anything particularly scintillating.

I'm mindful of this and it is extremely discouraging to see. In all that time they put into making useless forum posts, they could've easily gone and read over someone's story or reviewed the entries for a contest and placed a vote. And thus, I am extremely wary of taking those twenty or thirty minutes out of my day to sit down and read what such an individual wrote. I don’t do it out of spite, nor do I think of reviews as some sort of priviledge or reward. It's just that I rather take those same twenty or thirty minutes to support someone who’s putting in a good and hard effort into upholding the pillars of this community.

Now, I know that the whole issue of the member ranking system has been cross-examined to death, but I just want to say that I think member rank should be limited to reviews, voting and only certain areas of the forum. For example, the “Fanlib Fun” forum is a great way of getting to know our fellow members and having a bit of fun, but most of the time, it’s just being used as a means to an end. I’m not suggesting we close it down, I just think that maybe we shouldn’t count any of the forum posts made there. After all, it takes almost no time at all to write a one-word post and click ‘submit’ compared to the time it takes to read, consider and comment on someone’s work or insightful forum post, and yet, it counts for the same.

If we eliminated the opportunity for the one-word wonders to climb up in the ranks, maybe the system will fulfill its initial purpose-- to spotlight the individuals who are really trying to make the community what it is.

Then again, that method isn’t entirely abuse-proof either-- we could always implement a minimum character count for reviews to dodge the one-word review bullet---but it would be a step in the right direction.

As it stands, however, I make up my own mind. My personal goals are to, first and foremost, support those who contribute meaningfully to the community… although that's not to say I completely rule out hitting that 'browse' button every once in a while.

Just my two cents.

The ranking system really hasn't benefited me much at all. I've been sitting at 3 for well over a week now and my reviews received doesn't actually fit my reviews given ratio. I'm getting frustrated. I dish out on average about 10 reviews a day and hardly get anything back. I enjoy what I'm reading and I love to give my opinion about people's work, but a simple pat on the back every now and then would really be appreciated.

I'd just like to know if -someone- out there is reading my stuff. A lot of my replies back have been for contests and images. Don't get me wrong, I'm thankful for every review/reply I get, but it really is a confidence killer when I hear nothing about a story.

I am an active participator in the forums too, but this hasn't helped either. I guess what I'm trying to say is I feel ignored from time to time.

moderndaydrifter wrote:

I am an active participator in the forums too, but this hasn't helped either. I guess what I'm trying to say is I feel ignored from time to time.

No good deed goes unnoticed, modern. Hang in there!

On the review thing, I will say that here I get a much greater ratio of reviews to views than I do anywhere else online - including my fandom's own archive. On fanfiction.net, I get about one review to every forty hits. Here very few of my stories have as many as forty hits, but many of them have several reviews.

The only place I get more reviews per view than here is my fandom's paper zine, an APA with 25 members. Probably half of those will comment on a fic I post in it. Then again, they're paying for the privilege of having people's comments, art and fic posted to them...when you've paid $40 for it (that's what it costs me for postage and photocopying per issue) you're less likely not to bother, I'd suspect.

I do think member contests have a visibility problem here. Maybe we could have a "featured contest" so that people are attracted to them? It's so easy to forget them...even contests that I thought "oh, that looks fun", even contests that I've entered, I've forgotten existed. I do generally notice if the threads are bumped in the forums...but not everyone goes to the forums. How about a little space on the RHS of the screen, below the official contest advert, cycling round member contests?

cathrl wrote:

I do think member contests have a visibility problem here. Maybe we could have a "featured contest" so that people are attracted to them? It's so easy to forget them...even contests that I thought "oh, that looks fun", even contests that I've entered, I've forgotten existed. I do generally notice if the threads are bumped in the forums...but not everyone goes to the forums. How about a little space on the RHS of the screen, below the official contest advert, cycling round member contests?

Or how about a pledge badge promoting the contest on profile pages? For instance, when you first see a contest you might be interested in participating (whether submitting or voting) you can click a 'pledge to participate' button on the contest page that will automatically show up in your profile. That way, you remember what contests you were interested in seeing; visitors to your page will see them, and you're more likely to feel like a hack if you don't follow through on your promise

thedaringhattrick wrote:

moderndaydrifter wrote:

I am an active participator in the forums too, but this hasn't helped either. I guess what I'm trying to say is I feel ignored from time to time.

No good deed goes unnoticed, modern. Hang in there!

I'm coming up on my year anniversary on the site. I'm hanging in there...just not sure if anyone is below to catch me.

FANLib Forums

What is so great about Friday Night Lights? Read and find out! ,

This is what is so great! Great season one fanvid.

HEY YOU! Rent This Space For Your Next Contest! See Maryilee at her profile for details.

HEY YOU! Rent This Space For Your Next Contest! See Maryilee at her profile for details.

What is so great about Friday Night Lights? Read and find out! ,

This is what is so great! Great season one fanvid.

HEY YOU! Rent This Space For Your Next Contest! See Maryilee at her profile for details.

HEY YOU! Rent This Space For Your Next Contest! See Maryilee at her profile for details.

FANLib Forums

What is so great about Friday Night Lights? Read and find out! ,

This is what is so great! Great season one fanvid. HEY YOU! ** Rent This Space For Your Next Contest! See Maryilee at her profile for details. **

HEY YOU! ** Rent This Space For Your Next Contest! See Maryilee at her profile for details. **

What is so great about Friday Night Lights? Read and find out! ,

This is what is so great! Great season one fanvid. HEY YOU! ** Rent This Space For Your Next Contest! See Maryilee at her profile for details. **

HEY YOU! ** Rent This Space For Your Next Contest! See Maryilee at her profile for details. **

This is what is so great! Great season one fanvid.

HEY YOU! Rent This Space For Your Next Contest! See Maryilee at her profile for details.

HEY YOU! Rent This Space For Your Next Contest! See Maryilee at her profile for details.

This is what is so great! Great season one fanvid.

HEY YOU! Rent This Space For Your Next Contest! See Maryilee at her profile for details.

HEY YOU! Rent This Space For Your Next Contest! See Maryilee at her profile for details.